Wikidata:Property proposal/last appearance
Jump to navigation
Jump to search
last appearance[edit]
Return to Wikidata:Property proposal/Creative work
Under discussion
| Description | last work featuring a fictional character or item |
|---|---|
| Represents | last appearance (Q125686982) |
| Data type | Item |
| Example 1 | Mary Camden (Q125682212)→…And Thank You (Q114523400) |
| Example 2 | Dane Vogel (Q56613123)→Saints Row: Gat out of Hell (Q17911588) |
| Example 3 | Victor Vance (Q2469911)→Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (Q94671) |
| Example 4 | Troy McClure (Q1504550)→Bart the Mother (Q2617345) |
| Example 5 | Mermaid Man (Q93186548)→Patrick-Man! (Q29566244) |
| Example 6 | Leonard Burton (Q107024611)→The Hundred Year Play (Q109677017) |
| Example 7 | Bulldog (Q60649159)→Saints Row IV (Q13060351) |
| Wikidata project | WikiProject Video games (Q8485882) |
Motivation[edit]
This seemed needed--Trade (talk) 04:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Notified participants of WikiProject Narration Notified participants of WikiProject Fictional universes--Trade (talk) 04:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)- Notified participants of WikiProject Video games--Trade (talk) 04:14, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Discussion[edit]
Support some implementation of this but we should consider how to minimise data staleness if a new addition to a franchise is released (perhaps unexpectedly). This isn't a problem with first appearance (P4584). Arlo Barnes (talk) 05:33, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- number of episodes (P1113) would be a better example Trade (talk) 20:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Question I think this is doable in a different way, by present in work (P1441) 
we get an appearance on works, by publication date (P577) we get the publication date of the work. We can always sort by publication date to get the last appearance, doable in sparql and in lua both. If the point is to mark that it is known that it won't appear again (or is now forgotten) why not adding a qualifier ⟨ The Adventures of Tintin (Q744536)or something like that
⟩ present in work (P1441) ⟨ Tintin and the Picaros (Q612595) ⟩
followed by (P156) ⟨ no value Help ⟩- What would be the issue with that ? Too complicated ? Do not cover all cases ? author TomT0m / talk page 09:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- The only way we would be able to infer this would be if the vast majority of items about works and episodic works had a complete dataset. And you would still all of said items that a character have appeared in to be linked to them or vice versa which is even more rare Trade (talk) 23:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Using P1441 with qualifiers as TomT0m said should be enough. --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 16:15, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
- There isn't much of a benefit unless one consider the existence of new non-identifier properties to be actively harmful to the project. --Trade (talk) 00:06, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support This property is widely used in infoboxes of fictional characters on many wikipedias (enwiki, a couple on ruwiki). It will be difficult if not impossible to output the value of P1441 with the latest date to this param. Also, TV series characters often have a last episode listed, and there is no practice on WD to list dozens/hundreds of episodes in the character's P1441. Solidest (talk) 03:58, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I would even say that P1441 itself needs to be redesigned. Filling in all kinds of media, individual works, episodes of works, series of works of one media, series of works of cross-media (franchise) - this is all bad practice, because of which there are now difficulties with tuning infoboxes. Solidest (talk) 04:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- The problem is not on the data model, but in the infoboxes. We shouldn't model the data considering only Wikipedia usecases, Wikidata does not exist only to fullfill Wikipedia infoboxes and tables. The real problem is that now there isn't a way to make SPARQL queries from Lua templates for query data that has complex relationships. Changing the data model will not fix that. There is no problem on the way P1441 is used, because all of these uses express the same relationship, and SPARQL can be used to get further data, based in whether the predicate is a franchise, collection or a single creative work. --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 23:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Tinker Bell: So you're suggesting that it's correct and optimal to list thousands of episodes in which fictional characters participated, so that only one of them has the qualifier “last”? That seems like the wrong model and the wrong method for wikidata to me. It would be also strange to specify a TV series, franchise, series of works, individual episodes at the same time, and if you add the tags first and last appearance, it would be a complete mess. And if we specify characters in the items of distinct episodes and then make a query in such a way as to find the most recent release date, then again how to be and how to universalize if a character appears in several series, movies or franchises? The P1551 solution seems completely non-optimal and unstable for such cases. I don't think it would be possible to make a universal query in SPARQL that would work for every character for all kinds of media and works. There will be nuances everywhere, and each sphere will need different queries, also possibly ignoring unrelated or unofficial appearances. Or appearances in an advertisements that are likely not needed in the character's item, but may be filled in the item of such advertisement, etc. And by contrast, specifying such data in a specific property is the optimal solution to maintain data where the character last appeared. What you are proposing has serious problems in the data modeling, that in an attempt to simplify and not add specific property - it turns out to be impossible to make a unified approach for extracting this data from WD. This is a data modeling problem, not an infobox problem. Solidest (talk) 02:27, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- Could you elaborate? I am confused what the issue you are referring to is Trade (talk) 22:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Trade: This is probably a problem only for infoboxes, regarding the intersection of data on large series/franchises and nested individual works. The header of character infoboxes indicates that this is a character from X series or X franchise - and it's a specific parameter connected to P1551 - "series" or "franchise". For example Eric Cartman (Q47352) is from South Park (Q54622175) (franchise), or since there is no article on franchise on Russian wikipedia, therefore the series is listed there. P1551 suggests that it covers anything where the character appeared - franchise, TV series, films, video games, and Tinker Bell also suggests adding 300+ episodes of the TV series, and probably seasons of the TV series? In this form, the property on wikipedia cannot be used with auto-displaying such data in the infobox, and the data itself seems visually cluttered in items imo. Although it would probably be possible to retrieve all fictional characters that have what is p31=series/franchise in P1551 via SPARQL query. So it's probably a problem of infoboxes (but maybe also a schema problem for fictional characters data). By the way, there is also media franchise (P8345) and it's not clear how to use it with characters either. It seems like they just don't have it filled in right now. Solidest (talk) 02:43, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
- @TomT0m: would you like to give your opinion? @Tinker Bell: any changes in your opinion? Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 03:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- @ZI Jony: I mantain my opinion. @Trade: I'm saying that, if we have already an x property, it's redundant to have also an last x property. I also see that a lot of support for these proposals come from people that just want to show that info in Wikipedia infoboxes, but then, the real problem is not the lack of properties, but the Wikibase Client extension inability to let template creators to make SPARQL queries to get the result and filter, not only by the last appearance, but also the first appearance, or also last appearance in x country television. --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 04:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
- The problem is not on the data model, but in the infoboxes. We shouldn't model the data considering only Wikipedia usecases, Wikidata does not exist only to fullfill Wikipedia infoboxes and tables. The real problem is that now there isn't a way to make SPARQL queries from Lua templates for query data that has complex relationships. Changing the data model will not fix that. There is no problem on the way P1441 is used, because all of these uses express the same relationship, and SPARQL can be used to get further data, based in whether the predicate is a franchise, collection or a single creative work. --Tinker Bell ★ ♥ 23:42, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- I would even say that P1441 itself needs to be redesigned. Filling in all kinds of media, individual works, episodes of works, series of works of one media, series of works of cross-media (franchise) - this is all bad practice, because of which there are now difficulties with tuning infoboxes. Solidest (talk) 04:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support adding some form of this, whether it be through a new property or otherwise -Kurzov (talk) 13:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Support good point.--Frettie (talk) 22:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment I boldly modified the infobox to change the data type to Item. Looking at the examples, this is clearly what Trade wanted. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 18:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)